--- Log opened Mon Sep 20 00:00:33 2010
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 20 00:41:13 2010
--- Log opened Mon Sep 20 00:47:01 2010
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07:00 < htodd> 0.62.1 or 0.62.01?
07:00 < htodd> or is there a difference?
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07:10 < nikitakit> htodd: there isn't any difference
07:13 < htodd> ok, updated the fink version
07:13 < htodd> see ya
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 20 07:46:48 2010
--- Log opened Mon Sep 20 07:52:33 2010
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 20 08:05:18 2010
--- Log opened Mon Sep 20 08:11:03 2010
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10:01  * pixelgeek loving Morn's September Challenge entry
10:24 -!- artisan21 [62f0ea07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.240.234.7] has joined #synfig
10:24 < pixelgeek> Hi astisan21
10:24 < pixelgeek> Hi artisan21 
10:24 < artisan21> Hello, pixelgeek.
10:25 < artisan21> Thought that htodd would be on here at the moment. He isn't yet.
10:25 < artisan21> No worries.
10:25 < artisan21> brb
10:25 < pixelgeek> He doesn't usually hang out in #synfig
10:26 < pixelgeek> but you can just message him  - /msg htodd blah blah blah
10:26 < artisan21> Oh. Did you say it was freenode?
10:26 < pixelgeek> yes - just not on this channel
10:26 < artisan21> OK. I will do that.
10:26 < artisan21> Thanx.
10:26 < pixelgeek> looks like he is logged in right now
10:27 < pixelgeek> Don't know if hes at his PC though
10:27 < artisan21> Really? Which channel?
10:27 < pixelgeek> I don't remember
10:28 < pixelgeek> maybe if there's a #fink
10:28 < pixelgeek> or maybe a mac or linux one.
10:28 < artisan21> OK. No worries. Sure. That might be.
10:28 < pixelgeek> yes, he's in #fink
10:29 < pixelgeek> if you ask your question there, maybe we'll get some more mac users :)
10:29 < artisan21> OK. SO, how do I navigate there? Yes, I am a noob. LOL…
10:30 < pixelgeek> type "/join #fink" without the quotes
10:30 < artisan21> OK.
10:30 < pixelgeek> it should open another tab for you
10:30 < artisan21> It worked. Thanks.
10:30 < pixelgeek> looks like you're in :_
10:30 < pixelgeek> :)
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11:23 < pixelgeek> 'night all
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11:40 < ducuchu> ping
11:40 < ducuchu> hi! I have a little question, how I do, export my work in synfig of .avi or other file for video?
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13:28 < genete> ducuchu: if you're using 0.62.01 you can export to avi directly from Synfig Studio
13:29 < genete> otherwise: http://synfig.org/wiki/Tips#Render_to_AVI_with_higher_quality.3F
13:33 < ducuchu> genete: i have a 0.61.07
13:34 < ducuchu> genete: I export my work in .dv and .libav
13:34 < ducuchu> :)
13:34 < genete> ducuchu: :) why don't wou update your version? ;)
13:36 < genete> ducuchu: anyway, the second option is valid for any version through png sequence
13:49 < ducuchu> genete, I have a ubuntu 8.4.. jeje.. I guess update my ubuntu first :P
13:49 < genete> ouch! :)
13:49 < genete> I think you cannot at this point
13:50 < genete> you have to install from scrap
13:50 < Bombe> Good morning.
13:54 < genete> morning Bombe :)
13:58 < ducuchu> jeje.. :) you rigtht genete 
13:59 < ducuchu> I from to Guatemala, and.. the time is it: a 12:59 a.m.
13:59 < ducuchu> good night!! :) and good morning!!
13:59 < ducuchu> genete: thx for your help
13:59 < genete> ducuchu: you're welcome! :)
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14:09 < pekuja> wow, I had been really confused with how to use Synfig
14:09 < pekuja> before I found the "Animate Editing Mode" button
14:14 < pekuja> I'm a bit confused still though
14:14 < pekuja> I'm looking at my timetrack
14:14 < pekuja> and I have two keyframes, but three green circles
14:14 < pekuja> which seem to act like what I would call "keyframes"
14:14 < pekuja> so I don't quite understand what the keyframes do
14:19 < pekuja> also it seems like pen pressure doesn't work for me on Windows
14:19 < pekuja> I assume it should, because it shows up in Input Devices, and Pressure Width is enabled
14:20 < genete> hi pekuja 
14:20 < pekuja> hi
14:20 < genete> keyframes are not the green dots
14:21 < pekuja> right, I understand that
14:21 < pekuja> but the green dots seem to act like what I would call a "keyframe"
14:21 < genete> http://synfig.org/wiki/Keyframe
14:21 < genete> do you come from Anime Studio user?
14:21 < pekuja> so the green dots are called "waypoints"
14:21 < pekuja> no
14:21 < pekuja> I've used Flash before
14:21 < genete> ok
14:22 < pekuja> but I'm pretty new to animation
14:22 < genete> ok
14:22 < genete> all the animation is done by waypoints
14:22 < genete> a waypoint is composed by a value and a in out modes
14:23 < genete> the mode of in out determines the shape of the value curve between two waypoitns
14:23 < pekuja> ah, I see
14:23 < genete> default mode is the green dot but there are others in/out modes
14:23 < genete> seach waypoint in the wiki
14:23 < genete> and keyframe is just a animator aid thing
14:24 < genete> that allows the animator define "poses" where the values shouldn't change in the particular keyframe when the whereabouts are  changed
14:25 < genete> read the keyframes's wiki link and you'll understand it
14:25 < genete> regarding to pressure, double check that you have the device that correspond to your tablet enabled and that all the other devices are diabled
14:26 < genete> disabled*
14:26 < pekuja> enabled where?
14:27 < genete> in the extended device dialog
14:28 < genete> Toolbox->Device Settings ...
14:28 < genete> Toolbox->File->Device Settings ...
14:28 < genete> sorry
14:29 < pekuja> well, it seems like if I disable the tablet eraser, the pen tip also stops working
14:30 < pekuja> but I can't get it to show any signs with the stylus pressure
14:30 < pekuja> even though it works in other GTK+ apps
14:32 < pekuja> oh, hmm
14:32 < pekuja> I think it may be that the effect is just too subtle to see when not zoomed in
14:33 < pekuja> ah, yes
14:33 < pekuja> if I increase the brush size, I can see the difference clearly
14:34 < pekuja> kinda makes it more apparent how slow the effect is though :-/
14:36 < genete> but does it work?, I mean, do you have pen pressure?
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14:47 < pekuja> genete, yeah it seems like it works
14:48 < genete> cool
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16:50 < pekuja> do people usually draw their keyframes in another program like Inkscape, or do people use the drawing tools in Synfig?
16:50 < pekuja> I'm asking because I don't feel very comfortable with the drawing tools in Synfig
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17:27 < genete> pekuja: if you really want to do morph animation you should use Synfig drawing tools to create your artwork. If it is ony backgrounds or cutout animation you can use Inkscape to draw and then import
17:27 < pekuja> hm, ok
17:27 < pekuja> I didn't know Synfig did morphs
17:28 < genete> by morph I mean "tweening"
17:29 < genete> when you import from Inkscape the composition is not ready for a good animation workflow. It has lots of scattered layers and encapsulations
17:29 < genete> really hard to animate later
17:30 < genete> keep in mind this: the simpler the shape the easier to animate. Inkscape importing tends to complicate things
17:31 < pekuja> right
17:31 < pekuja> I'm guessing if you do Inkscape importing you'd want to make the drawing in multiple parts
17:31 < pekuja> if you want to do cutout animation
17:32 < prokoudine> genete, hi
17:33 < prokoudine> genete, I have a very simple suggestion re UI
17:34 < genete> hi prokoudine, speak
17:34 < genete> (I'm scared with the "very simple" suggestions ;))
17:35 < prokoudine> genete, remove table headers in both Layer palette and Undo history
17:35 < prokoudine> genete, they are really of no use
17:35 < prokoudine> especially the one in Layers
17:36 < prokoudine> it's quite obvious that the 2nd has icons in it and 3rd one -- actions :)
17:36 < genete> and the pallete what says? I don't have Synfig opened now
17:37 < prokoudine> Layers has "Icon" and "Title" in the header
17:38 < genete> hmm did you mean Layer's dock panel?
17:38 < prokoudine> genete, And I fail to see the point of the middle column in Undo history
17:38 < prokoudine> yes
17:39 < prokoudine> all it says for every change is "move here"
17:39 < prokoudine> or something like that in English
17:39 < prokoudine> whereas description of a change to the right of it rarely fits
17:39 < genete> oh, the JUMP shorcut  is to avoid press undo a bunch of times
17:40 < prokoudine> avoid how?
17:40 < genete> say you want to undo a lot of things and get back 50 actions, you can:
17:40 < genete> press the JUMP word in the action to go to
17:41 < genete> press 50 times the undo button
17:41 < genete> or 
17:41 < genete> then the 50 actions are undone autmatically
17:41 < genete> in one click
17:41 < prokoudine> just pressing the line should do it
17:41 < prokoudine> works like a charm everywhere
17:42 < genete> pressing the line? the name action description ?
17:42 < pekuja> maybe a doubleclick would be better?
17:43 < genete> prokoudine: there is also another feature that needs to click the line: the checkbox
17:43 < genete> it disables the action for undo or redo
17:44 < genete> so it might be tricky to jump by clicking and also do not confuse it with a click on the checkbox
17:44  * prokoudine sighs
17:44 < prokoudine> why would it be tricky? :)
17:45 < genete> specially when (I don't know why) the current panels doesn't get the focus of the mouse instantly (a pair of clicks are needed to uncheck a checkbox checked)
17:45 < genete> because that ^
17:45 < prokoudine> clicking on description would do the jump
17:45 < prokoudine> hm
17:45 < prokoudine> they don't?
17:45 < genete> anyway, it is possible to replace the jump action and place it in the action name itseld
17:45 < genete> itself, yes
17:46 < genete> maybe in the history panel but not in the param panel
17:46 < genete> so the initial request is to completely remove the header of the action panel?
17:47 < prokoudine> yes
17:48 < genete> and the second one is to remove the JUMP column and move the jump response to the action description, right?
17:48 < prokoudine> yes
17:49 < genete> it is the obvious (click on the action name in the history and the actions are all undone until that one?
17:50 < genete> wouldn't it be better to move the jump action to the action buttons and let the user click on the action without any response?
17:50 < genete> I think it would be a bit stressing to inmediately do the action when selecting a row in a panel
17:50 < genete> usually users expect an action when pressing a button
17:50 < genete> and the action is performed to the selection
17:51 < prokoudine> um
17:51 < prokoudine> you lost me there
17:51 < genete> there are some buttons in bottom part of the action panel, right?
17:51 < prokoudine> yes
17:52 < genete> undo, redo, clar undo, clear redo and clear all, IIRC
17:52 < genete> I prefer to add a "jump to" button there and remove from the action list
17:53 < genete> instead to associate the "jump to" action with a single click of the action name row
17:59 < genete> IMHO, the JMP colum is quite fast to work (you don't move the mouse too much) maybe it is better to replace it by a button instead of a text
18:00 < genete> and regarding the Layer panel, there is only one header that is useful (the most right Zdepth column header)
18:01 < genete> if you click on it, you sort the layers by its real depth
18:01 < genete> so you can visually see how a layer jumps up and down when modifying the Z value
18:02 < prokoudine> um
18:02 < prokoudine> I'm sorry, but I'd hate to use any kinds of buttons for such a simple thing
18:03 < prokoudine> I'm beginning to feel sorry about raising the topic
18:03 < prokoudine> it looks like you want to introduce even worse solution :)
18:03 < genete> oh no! It needs fixing!
18:04 < genete> lol
18:08 < genete> redo/undoing actions is a bit risky. If you disable an action maybe you cannot redo or undo everything and things get messed up.
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21:00 < pekuja> hmm, is it possible to make the draw tool act less erratic?
21:00 < pekuja> I mean, it seems like sometimes it loses whole parts of the line I was drawing
21:00 < pekuja> or oversimplifies them
21:00 < pekuja> or are there some tips on how to work around that?
21:02 < genete> hi pekuja 
21:02 < genete> there is a draw tool options panel
21:02 < pekuja> yeah, I know
21:02 < pekuja> I poked around with those
21:02 < pekuja> but couldn't really figure out how to make it work like I wanted
21:02 < pekuja> what does "Smooth" do?
21:03 < genete> well, it is supposed to clean the stroke to get less points when you have jittering in your hand
21:03 < pekuja> hmm
21:03 < genete> try to set it to the extreme values and see
21:03 < pekuja> yeah, I think that's what's causing me trouble
21:03 < pekuja> the outline bline probably does some too
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * r08f67bd7c711 demo/01/soldier-02.sif: 01: Soldier 02 prepared for tracing.
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21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * rb0a01e34ca19 demo/ (49/49-kf-01.sif 49/49.sif demo.blend): 49: Keyframe artwork integrated into shot.
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * r19e4fc5ecc34 demo/35/35.sif: 35: Better camera motion (Linear/TCB waypoints tweaking)
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * r8c13a067d05b demo/35/ (35-ivan-morevna-01.jpg 35-ivan-morevna-02.jpg): 35: Ivan and Morevna keyframes artwork by Eleonora Pala.
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * rbd0db077b78e demo/35/35.sif: 35: Integrate artwork into shot.
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * r141d180793fe demo/35/35.sif: 35: Tweak with speed lines at the start.
21:04 < CIA-35> MorevnaProject: Konstantin Dmitriev master * r0092c8b7155a demo/35/35.sif: 35: Make zoom out slower at the start (second keyframe moved).
21:04 < pekuja> the automatic bline does some weird stuff
21:05 < genete> can you show me the "weird stuff"?
21:05 < genete> and waht's the automatic bline? the one that is obtained from the Draw tool?
21:05 < pekuja> yeah
21:05 < pekuja> when you have "Create Outline BLine" enabled
21:05 < pekuja> http://i54.tinypic.com/14dfrl4.png -- here
21:06 < pekuja> I just basically drew a spiral sort of thing
21:06 < pekuja> and it does that strange little spike on the right
21:06 < pekuja> this seems to happen with both mouse and pen
21:07 < Zelgadis> genete: answering your early queation - draw tool with ctrl still produces twisted region when direction is wrong
21:07 < genete> pekuja: can you show me all the outlines selected? I want to see all the blinepoints produced
21:08 < genete> Zelgadis: bad news but I think it is revisable to try to produce good results. I bet it just add the actions directly instead of call the Link action
21:08 < Zelgadis> genete: I guess so ^___^
21:09 < pekuja> http://i52.tinypic.com/14ubyuo.png -- zoomed in a bit
21:09 < pekuja> hmmhmm... I hink tinypic may have blown it up further... if it's huge, I didn't mean it to be huge
21:09 < genete> pekuja: the spike on the 'G' shape is due that the program interpretes that you wanted to draw a sharp corner based on the velocity and angle of the stroke
21:09 < pekuja> right
21:09 < pekuja> I didn't draw very sharply though
21:10 < pekuja> it's not quite what I would want
21:10 < genete> pekuja: there is not exact rule. Each person is different and you have to find the better value that suits your drawing flow
21:11 < Zelgadis> pekuja: you need to tweak Smooth parameter
21:11 < pekuja> Zelgadis, it's as low as it goes
21:11 < pekuja> oh, hm
21:12 < pekuja> it seems like Synfig isn't sampling a lot of points of the arc I draw
21:12 < pekuja> so that's probably contributing a lot to this problem
21:13 < Zelgadis> pekuja: Are you drawing with tablet?
21:13 < pekuja> yes
21:13 < Zelgadis> model?
21:13 < pekuja> Wacom Bamboo Fun
21:13 < pekuja> I'm also on Windows
21:13 < Zelgadis> try the same with the mouse
21:13 < pekuja> I think GTK+ may have some troubles with tablet input
21:13 < pekuja> I can replicate the same problem with the mouse
21:13 < genete> there are two ways to handle the freedrawing: discard points at the time they are read from the device and proccess the non discarded and read all them and discard them later
21:13 < genete> I think that Synfig does the first case
21:14 < pekuja> :-<
21:14 < pekuja> right
21:14 < Zelgadis> pekuja: what is the version of synfig? and your OS?
21:14 < pekuja> Windows 7, Synfig latest version, 0.4.4b or something?
21:14 < pekuja> um no
21:14 < genete> try to draw slow and with the same speed all times
21:14 < pekuja> that's some other program probably
21:14 < pekuja> 0.62.01
21:15 < Zelgadis> probably windows issue
21:15 < genete> (LOL)
21:15 < Zelgadis> Need to contact pixelgeek to confirm that behavior
21:15 < pekuja> it seems to me like GTK+ on Windows doesn't handle tablets very well
21:15 < pekuja> I also have troubles with MyPaint
21:15 < pekuja> I have to say it's worse in Synfig though
21:15 < pekuja> but they're different sorts of programs of course
21:15 < Zelgadis> but you can reproduce it with the mouse, isnt it?
21:15 < pekuja> yeah
21:16 < pekuja> but the mouse seems generally worse at sampling
21:16 < Zelgadis> so it's not tablet-related
21:16 < pekuja> right
21:16 < pekuja> might not be
21:16 < pekuja> I think the samplerate is too low
21:16 < pekuja> I think the tablet at least is able to produce a lot more data
21:16 < Zelgadis> Everything fine with draw tool here (linux)
21:16 < pekuja> so, it's probably best to use BLines with Synfig on Windows
21:17 < pekuja> or draw really slowly, but that's awkward
21:17 < Zelgadis> pekuja: Do you have Local Error enabled?
21:17 < Zelgadis> (in tool options panel)
21:19 < pekuja> Local Error?
21:19 < pekuja> no
21:19 < pekuja> what does it do?
21:20 < Zelgadis> OK
21:20 < Zelgadis> don't know. But behaviour is a little different
21:20 < pekuja> haha
21:20 < pekuja> by the way, what really bugs me is that sometimes short lines don't even get drawn
21:21 < pekuja> and I've had cases where it'll lose a big part of the line I was drawing
21:21 < Zelgadis> pekuja: I advice to contact pixelgeek - he's synfig windows user
21:21 < genete> if the number of points is less than 3 the line is discarded
21:21 < pekuja> genete, why's that? :-/
21:22 < pekuja> by the way, I think it's a bit telling of this input issue that I can actually draw a line with less than 3 points
21:22 < genete> it is that if you accidentally put the pen on the tablet it won't produce a layer
21:22 < pekuja> I mean, deliberately try to draw a line, and it ends up getting discarded
21:22 < genete> very quick?
21:23 < genete> some combinations of smooth values and pen speed makes difficult to create a bline
21:24 < genete> anyway it is totally understandable that you get unconfortable with that tool. All we don't get confortable neither. But nobody has tried to fine tune the code to produce better results :-/
21:25 < pekuja> not super super quick
21:25 < pekuja> but kinda quick
21:25 < pekuja> I mean, a quick line
21:25 < pekuja> a short stroke
21:25 < genete> yeah, probably discarded
21:25 < genete> but  that's your normal workflow?
21:26 < pekuja> heh. I don't really have a normal workflow
21:26 < pekuja> I'm learning
21:26 < pekuja> trying to get into animation
21:26 < pekuja> exploring the options available
21:28 < genete> :)
21:29 < pekuja> Synfig might be the most powerful free option out there
21:29 < pekuja> the UI isn't the most approachable though :-/
21:30 < pekuja> I might try starting with something simpler
21:41 < genete> Zelgadis: Draw tool just direct set the link of the blinepoints so it doesn't link the vertex and the tangent individually. 
21:42 < Zelgadis> Ah, I see
21:42 < Zelgadis> Probaby possible to change?
21:42 < genete> dunno
21:43 < genete> link directly two blinepoints doesn't take any preference on the tangents. It always links t1 with t1 and so
21:43 < genete> if they are not geometrically compatible is impossible to know from the code (AFAIK)
21:43 < genete> maybe
21:44 < genete> if we change the way to link two blinepoints
21:44 < Zelgadis> I think it's better to change them to link individually
21:44 < Zelgadis>  vertex and the tangent
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 21 00:00:33 2010