--- Log opened Sun Oct 14 00:00:44 2007
00:04 < dooglus> ulrik: I just committed a fix to your .lst bug
00:08 < ulrik> dooglus: am i able to update?
00:09 < dooglus> sur
00:10 < dooglus> e
00:10 < ulrik> :) 
00:17 < CIA-28> synfig: dooglus * r924 /synfig-core/trunk/src/modules/mod_png/mptr_png.cpp: The code documents an unexplained crash in libpng, but was also leaking filehandles. We should close the file handle, or we run out after rendering a few animations which import large .lst files.
00:33 < ulrik> dooglus: i'm leaving it rendering now, i've updated to 924, i'll go to bed ...sleep well and godnight! :) 
00:34 < ulrik> 'night everybody!
01:12 -!- genete [n=Genete@84.122.44.48.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #synfig
01:12 < genete> ulrik, dooglus : I've readed your comments ....
01:13 < genete> dooglus: You're not having free time!!!! Grrrrr
01:13 < genete> ;-)
01:13 < pxegeek> And they were trying to hide it from you!!!
01:14 < genete> :)
01:15 < genete> (don't tell them but I read the log befrore I connect...)
01:15 < genete> pxegeek: How are you man?
01:16 < pxegeek> Doing OK - nearly kicked this cold
01:16 < pxegeek> How are you doing?
01:18 < genete> Just return on have dinner outside and a cup in a bar. Very close to go to bed
01:18 < dooglus> genete: oh dear - you caught me out!
01:19 < genete> I've finished the keyframe wiki page this morning... I think it is worth to try to improve wiki pages. I've learned a lot and can understand more things now...
01:20 < genete> dooglus: Don't come us telling you're tired never more!! 
01:20 < genete> ;-)
01:21 < pxegeek> Genete, are you having fun with your visitor?
01:21  * pxegeek living vacariously through others.
01:22 < genete> dooglus: hehe ... we were outside my home most of the time taking the most of the sun that still shining here...
01:23 < genete> We're now 20 celsius degrees and it is 1:23 am
01:24 < dooglus> here it's also 1:23am, but only 3 celsius
01:24 < genete> Brrrrrrr we never have that temperature here!!!1
01:25 < genete> dooglus: I've seen how quickcly you adopted the switch conversion type...
01:25 < dooglus> genete: it was very simple
01:25 < genete> It would be a mini revolution though
01:25 < dooglus> genete: basically one line of new code:  value = switch ? link_on : link_off;
01:26 < genete> Can canvases be exported also?
01:26 < genete> sorry
01:26 < genete> converted
01:26 < genete> canvas are not able to be converted I'm afraid
01:26 < genete> canvases*
01:27  * genete issaying silly things..
01:27  * genete is tired ... so much beer...
01:29 < dooglus> you can convert canvases to 'reference' or 'switch'
01:29 < dooglus> http://wiki.synfig.com/Convert#Canvas
01:29 < dooglus> 'reference' and 'switch' are the only 2 converts than every type can use
01:30 < dooglus> (because they are the only 2 converts that simply copy their input(s) to their outputs, and so don't need to know what they they're working with)
01:30 < genete> I guess you can convert  a canvas to reference, I've just done it.
01:31 < genete> I say this because the canvas selector doesn't make any waypoint in the timeline and is difficult to follow a path of when the change was done
01:32 < CIA-28> synfig: dooglus * r925 /synfig-core/trunk/src/modules/mod_png/mptr_png.cpp: Fix memory leak. The png library was being used slightly wrongly.
01:33 < pxegeek> ^^^ nice one dooglus!
01:34 < genete> dooglus: could it be possible to make the canvas drop down menu leave a waypoint when you change it?
01:35 < genete> dooglus: SORRY FOR THOSE SILLY QUESTIONS
01:36 < genete> I readed that  you cannot convert canvases to 'reference' or 'switch'
01:36 < dooglus> the canvas parameter shows the waypoints of the canvas, not of the canvas parameter
01:37 < dooglus> that's useful - but it would also be useful to see the parameter's waypoints, too
01:37 < genete> so if you can switch the canvas now we can leave a waypoint in the switch parameter...
01:38 < dooglus> yes
01:39 < dooglus> but you can only switch between 2 canvases - you can switch between switches between switches if you want more options I suppose
01:39 < genete> yes
01:39 < dooglus> maybe a new kind of switch, with a list and a number would be better
01:40 < genete> but then you have to manage lists...
01:40 < genete> have you understood how they work?
01:40 < dooglus> animating boolean parameters (like 'Switch') doesn't seem to work very well either - did you notice?
01:40 < dooglus> to test 'Switch' I tried making a dot follow 2 blines, switching between them over time
01:41 < genete> and how was it?
01:41 < dooglus> but having a series of 'on' and 'off' value waypoints for the switch param didn't really work, even with interpolation 'constant'
01:41 < genete> ?
01:41 < genete> why?
01:41 < dooglus> you would think that 0-----1-----0-----1 would switch between them, but it seemed to not switch very often
01:42 < genete> very often?
01:42 < dooglus> I don't know why, I need to look into it.  sometimes it switched, yes.
01:42 < dooglus> I ended up doing this:  0-----01-----10-----01 and that worked, of course
01:42 < dooglus> ie. pairs of waypoints 1 frame away from each other
01:42 < genete> maybe you should make a bigger than instead of equal to
01:43 < genete> I believe that synfig doesn't make it exactly  == 1
01:44 < genete> maybe some kind of float to int conversion?
01:44 < genete> But the parameters that use on and off works ok...
01:46 < genete> or not?
01:47 < CIA-28> synfig: dooglus * r926 /synfig-core/trunk/src/modules/mod_png/mptr_png.cpp: Removed the 'fixme' comment, because I fixed it already.
01:49 < genete> I've played with Sharp cusps on an outline and do the same that you say on the Switch value... It is only off during a preiod of time if it is enclosed by two off and viceversa.
01:50 < dooglus> genete: I'm talking about boolean values - true or false
01:50 < dooglus> genete: there's no float rounding going on
01:50 < genete> ok
01:50 < dooglus> so what if it's between 'on and off' or 'off and on'?
01:51 < genete> the value seems to be the most early in the time. ON for a 'on - off' and OFF for a 'off-on'
01:52 < genete> but not sure
01:52 < genete> I'm just looking the graph and the result in the drawing
01:54 < genete> Mmm it seems to predominate the ON against the OFF
01:57 < genete> If you have this sequence 1-0-1 then all the time is 1 except the exact frame where the value is 0
01:59 < genete> But the opposite 0-1-0 doesn't do the opposite. It makes the parameter all the time = 1 except for frames begind and end where the value is = 0
02:00 < genete> So making a switch to "off" will not last more than one frame if there is a "on" later
02:01 < dooglus> ok - that's what I saw too, probably.  that's what I meant by "not switch very often" :)
02:01 < dooglus> I had an example here, but it won't load ('undefined valuenodes')
02:01 < dooglus> I found it annoying that it didn't tell me which ones were undefined, so I fixed that instead of the problem I was meaning to look at.
02:02 < CIA-28> synfig: dooglus * r927 /synfig-core/trunk/src/synfig/loadcanvas.cpp: When loading a canvas fails because of undefined valuenodes, show the IDs of the undefined nodes.
02:03 < genete> on/off have an odd behavior
02:05 < genete> better than odd, skewed
02:06 < genete> dooglus: I have to go to bed. Tomorrow I'll update to last commit and let you know. 
02:07 < genete> (And you should do the same...) (go to bed I mean ;-)
02:07 < genete> good night!
02:07 < genete> bye!
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03:44 < pxegeek> Hi GustoEater!
03:51 < pxegeek> dooglus - I just updated to 927 - Do you want testing with single thread box checked or not?
03:51 < pxegeek> (not checked)
03:52 < pxegeek> ((I'm assuming you want testing :) ))
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05:28 < dooglus> pxegeek: both single-threaded and regular multi-threaded are buggy...  take your pick :)
05:28 < pxegeek> :)
05:29 < pxegeek> Morning dooglus!
05:29 < pxegeek> 927's not crashed on me yet this evening.
05:30 < dooglus> pxegeek: in which mode?
05:31 < pxegeek> Multi threaded, but restricted to one CPU by the THG app.
05:31 < dooglus> ok
05:31 < dooglus> I've been looking into why multi-threaded is crashing
05:31 < dooglus> but it's a bit of a nightmare
05:31 < pxegeek> You said you found a new tool?
05:31 < pxegeek> probably why it's so fragile
05:31 < dooglus> most of the pointers synfig uses are reference-counted - ie. each one knows how many different places it's refered to
05:32 < dooglus> when no part of the code is refering to an object any more, it deletes itself
05:32 < dooglus> the problem seems to be that 2 threads can both try changing the reference count at the same time
05:32 < pxegeek> spinlocks here we come
05:33 < dooglus> they both read the current count (2, say), both increment it to 3, then write their new value back.  one writes 3, then the next writes 3
05:33 < pxegeek> Ouch
05:33 < dooglus> so now we have 4 references, but a count of 3
05:33 < dooglus> eventually we'll end up with 1 reference, a count of 0, and a deleted object still being referenced
05:34 < pxegeek> So isn't there a way of setting a flag so that the second thread knows it can't access the count until the first has relinquished the flag?
05:34 < dooglus> yes, there is.  they're called 'mutex's
05:35 < pxegeek> That's the word I was searching for,.
05:35 < pxegeek> 5 letters for one sentance!
05:35 < dooglus> like a flag - whoever gets there first raises the flag, and the other has to wait for the first to lower the flag before it can get in
05:35 < dooglus> that leads to lots of waiting around, and possible deadlocks, if each is waiting for the other to lower a flag
05:36 < dooglus> this may be why synfig-core/trunk/TODO has "* Move to a garbage-collected system rather than reference counted" as one of the things to do
05:37  * pxegeek looks up spinlocks
05:37 < pxegeek> A spinlock is a mutex which at first glance is incredibly naive: if it can't get the lock the first time around, it keeps trying in a busy loop (this is the `spin' part).
05:38 < dooglus> the tool I was using knows about these flags, and about threads.  it can tell me "thread 1 and thread 3 both wrote to this address, without both checking the same flag first"
05:38 < dooglus> it says that a LOT
05:38 < pxegeek> :(
05:39 < pxegeek> But yay that it can follow it/
05:39 < pxegeek> http://www.linuxgrill.com/anonymous/fire/netfilter/kernel-hacking-HOWTO-5.html has a nice description of mutexs and semaphores that even I can follow
05:40 < pxegeek> So there is a flag to check, but they're not checking it?  Or do you have to implement the flags in some cases?
05:41 < dooglus> there's no flag-checking done for reference counting
05:41 < dooglus> there's flag checking done elsewhere
05:41 < dooglus> I'm not sure yet whether this really is the problem - it sounds like it might be though
05:41 < dooglus> I often see crashes with messages like 'abort: refcount==0'
05:42 < dooglus> (I think these only happen if compiled with debugging enabled - if not, the code continues running, but having refcount==0 is still a serious problem
05:42 < dooglus> it means the object has been de-allocated, and the memory will eventually be re-used for something else, leading to any kind of corruption and random behaviuor
05:43 < dooglus> I'm thinking that putting a mutex around every refcount change would be prohibitively slow - but maybe it's worth trying
05:45 < dooglus> I'm also thinking: the main thread seems to be the only thread that does any GUI interaction.  the other threads are just renderers
05:46 < dooglus> maybe the renderer threads never modify the core data - they just read it to work out what to render - and so there's some nicer way to fix the problem
05:49 < pxegeek> A readwrite lock is a spinlock, except you lock it in one of two modes: a `read lock' or a `write lock'. More than one people can share a `read lock', but the write lock is exclusive: if someone has a write lock, noone can have any lock. If your code is clearly divided into readers (who don't need exclusive access to the data) and writers (who do), you can use read-write locks. Be aware that...
05:49 < pxegeek> ...they are slightly more expensive than normal spinlocks on some [FIXME: most?] architectures.
05:49 < pxegeek> </quote>
05:52 < dooglus> the thing with refcounts seems to be that you never need to just read or just write
05:52 < dooglus> you always read it, add or subtract one, then write it back straight away
05:52 < dooglus> that doesn't take very long to do, and so the chances of having the same refcount modified twice at the same time is probably tiny
05:53 < pxegeek> but do it often enough
05:53 < dooglus> right
05:53 < pxegeek> ...
05:53 < dooglus> but didn't you say you see a crash almost immediately every time on windows if you allow hyperthreading?
05:53 < pxegeek> Sorry, I'm with you on the refcount versus  just reading the data
05:54 < pxegeek> Yes, adding a timeline to pirates (for example) caused a crash pretty much instantly
05:54 < dooglus> I guess each object could have its own mutex - that would reduce the waiting time a lot, but increase memory use
05:54 < pxegeek> Other simpler files crashed a little slower.
05:55 < pxegeek> I even had one that looked like it allowed me to add a timeline, only to crash as soon as I moved on it. 
05:56 < pxegeek> What does it do when you add a timeline?  
05:56 < pxegeek> I wouldn't have thought it needs to do any rendering at that point?  Only when you change to a different point on the timeline?
05:57 < dooglus> it probably calls set_time(0) when you add it
05:57 < pxegeek> (BTW, this was why a lot of my early Synfig art submissions were still images)
05:58 < pxegeek> Sets up data structures?
06:00 < dooglus> I think synfig used to be for still images...
06:00 < dooglus> back when it was called sinfg?
06:00 < dooglus> look familiar?  http://www.files-library.com/files/SINFG.html
06:01 < dooglus> "SINFG is a resolution-independent image manipulation package"
06:02 < dooglus> ooh look - regular releases!  :)  http://www.files-library.com/package/sinfg/sinfg.html
06:07 < dooglus> 	if(begin_time==end_time)
06:07 < dooglus> 		hide_timebar();
06:07 < dooglus> 	else
06:07 < dooglus> 		show_timebar();
06:08 < dooglus> looks like that's what it does
06:11 < dooglus> I just tried running studio while rebuilding:
06:11 < dooglus> synfig(26140): error: Size of Canvas mismatch (app:584, lib:588)
06:11 < dooglus> synfig(26140): error: Size of Layer mismatch (app:228, lib:232)
06:11 < dooglus> looks like the mutex takes 4 bytes...
06:27 < pxegeek> I'm working through the rendering targets to document what works and what doesn't 
06:28 < pxegeek> Not surprisingly, all the still format files work
06:28 < pxegeek> :)
06:31 < pxegeek> Mmm... sinfg looks very familiar.  The sif files aren't compatible with synfig though :(
06:34 < dooglus> it's not XML
06:34 < dooglus> I just tried putting a mutex in each etl::handle (the refcounted objects)
06:34 < dooglus> I don't know if it's much slower or not
06:35 < dooglus> oh, looks like it's hung - not surprising really
06:36 < pxegeek> <quote>	While this is the first public release of
06:36 < pxegeek> Sinfg, it is not the first incarnation of it. To
06:36 < pxegeek> date, this code base represents the start of a
06:36 < pxegeek> third complete re-write of the Sinfg concept.</quote>
06:36 < pxegeek> Looks like Synfig was the fourth rewrite!
06:36 < dooglus> yes, I saw that
06:37 < dooglus> I wonder where the name came from
06:37 < dooglus> I was thinking 'SYNthesis of FIGures'
06:37 < dooglus> but it looks like SYN is a corruption of SIN
06:37 < pxegeek> Still doesn't say what SIF stands for...  but it makes more sense for sinfg than for synfig
06:38 < pxegeek> sinfg - sin function generator?
06:38 < pxegeek> Synthetic figures?
06:39 < Bombe> Synfig Image File? Would make perfect sense.
06:41 < pxegeek> You mean sinfg image file?  ;)
06:41 < dooglus> "	I apologize for the lack of documentation
06:41 < dooglus> and source commentation. Obviously, this will change
06:41 < dooglus> in later releases."  :)))
06:41 < pxegeek> lol
06:41 < pxegeek> Hi Bombe!
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06:54 < Ceox> hey
07:02 < pxegeek> Hey Ceox!
07:02 < pxegeek> Any warmer this morning?
07:02 < Ceox> nope
07:02 < Ceox> rainier and colder
07:02 < pxegeek> (I had to turn on the air conditioning this afternoon)
07:02 < Ceox> it should snow, actually
07:02 < Ceox> :O
07:02 < pxegeek> Brrr...
07:05 < Ceox> im planning about making a tutorial
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07:06 < pxegeek> Found a screenshot from sinfg - http://freshmeat.net/screenshots/19889/21056/
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07:06 < Ceox> oops
07:06 < pxegeek> You were saying?
07:06 < Ceox> yes
07:07 < Ceox> i am planning to make a tutorial about blending effects
07:08 < dooglus> hahah - that was clever of me
07:08 < dooglus> I put a mutex around the 'optimize layers' function
07:08 < dooglus> and wondered why synfig was hanging on complex .sif files
07:08 < Ceox> mutex?
07:08 < dooglus> 'optimize layers' calls itself...
07:08 < dooglus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutex
07:09 < Ceox> aah
07:09 < dooglus> Ceox: did you see the wiki page about it?
07:10 < dooglus> http://wiki.synfig.com/Blend_Method
07:10 < dooglus> some of the methods could use more explanation and/or justification
07:10 < pxegeek> iteration - see iteration
07:11 < Ceox> yes i did
07:11 < dooglus> ok
07:13 < dooglus> pxegeek: studio runs pirates.sifz fine with mutexes on all ref-counted objects
07:13 < pxegeek> :) 
07:13 < pxegeek> You mean is doesn't miscount anyway, or you're stopping it from miscounting?
07:14 < dooglus> so back to the Thrcheck tool then to see what else it moans about
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07:26 < Ceo1> damn internet
07:31 < Ceo1> it wprls pretty good with synfig
07:31 < Ceo1> yes indeed
07:31 < Ceo1> works*
07:32 < pxegeek> Ceo1 - which version are you running? 
07:33 < Ceo1> http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2902/reallg6.gif
07:33 < Ceo1> newest
07:33 < Ceo1> thats a bit too fast, though
07:33 < pxegeek> Oooh!  Shiny!
07:34 < pxegeek> I just compiled SVN 927 this afternoon - I can upload it for you if you're interested
07:34 < pxegeek> Mind you - dooglus is still fixing bugs...
07:35 < Ceo1> yeah
07:35 < Ceo1> im good with this version
07:36 < Ceo1> just going to wait for a stable release
07:36 < Ceo1> i mean official
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07:38 < Ceo1> i only used waypoints in that animation
07:38 < Ceo1> where do you need kayframes for?
07:39 < Ceo1> dooglus tried to explain it to me, but i didn't get it
07:44 < pxegeek> I haven't played with them much either
07:45 < pxegeek> but they're a bit more flexible than waypoints
07:45 < pxegeek> From what I gather - I'm a bit fuzzy on the difference too.
07:47 < Ceo1> waypoints are keyframes too. they are just easier to add
07:48 < pxegeek> You can name keyframes - makes them easier to see what's going on in the animation - face smiles, face frowns, that sort of thing
07:49 < pxegeek> Hi pabs!
07:52 < Ceo1> ok
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08:09 < Zelig> Hey everyone. I uploaded the final version of Sy 'n' Fig to YouTube. I think this version came out well. The address is here:
08:09 < Zelig> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bySt14ufRmU
08:18 < pxegeek> Nice! 
08:18 < pxegeek> I must say, when you described the plot I ahd my doubts, but you executed it beautifully!
08:19 -!- TheProducer [n=Miranda@r75-110-92-13.kntncmtc01.kstnnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #synfig
08:19 < Zelig> Thanks pxegeek.
08:19 < TheProducer> Hello!
08:19 < pxegeek> Hi!
08:19 < TheProducer> I've ran into your guys software a few months ago, and i've been watching it ever since
08:19 < TheProducer> Very nice work....the latest release really improves the stability
08:20 < TheProducer> Though I have one question...about importing...
08:20 < pxegeek> yes?
08:20 < TheProducer> What formats does it support?  And will importing be expanded on in the future?
08:20 < pxegeek> Definately jpg
08:21 < pxegeek> I'd be surprised if png wasn't also
08:21 < TheProducer> What about vector formats?  Like AI? lol, or at the very least, SVG?
08:21 < TheProducer> I'm working on a animated project...and most of the assets are being drawn in Inkscape
08:21 < pxegeek> I saw someone mentioning that svg was read into imagemagick and rendered before importing.
08:22 < pxegeek> Unfortunately Synfig can't import and use SVG natively.  
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08:22 < TheProducer> Oh ok...I tried earlier today and tried to import a simple SVG file, and nothing appeared to happen
08:22 < pxegeek> (I had a look at the SVG spec, and some the things it can do aren't easily mapped to Synfig's features, and conversely)
08:22 < TheProducer> I see
08:24 < TheProducer> So the only option would be to import as raster...and I dont think Synfig would be able to use its vector animation techniques on it, and it would be pretty tedious to work with for the animator
08:25 < pxegeek> Yes - although the raster image can be translated, rotated, scaled, stretched, warped, blurred, etc.
08:25 < pxegeek> just not edited
08:26 < pxegeek> If you have a look at the prologue video, all the background (and some static foreground elements) are imported images
08:26 < TheProducer> Oh really?
08:27 < TheProducer> lol, I thought they were drawn in-program
08:27 < TheProducer> Oh..you meant the BACKGROUND images..
08:27 < pxegeek> Me too - I was trying to figure out how they'd done the texturing on the wall, and I couldn't see an obvious way to do it
08:28 < TheProducer> I see
08:28 < pxegeek> And the rock they hide behind
08:28 < TheProducer> For my project, the backgrounds wouldn't be that big of a deal, since its going to be composited on a pre-rendered 3D scene from Blender (toonshaded to match the style of the drawing)
08:28 < pxegeek> So you see it's animated reflection in the water
08:29 < pxegeek> Sweet! (I'm a blenderhead too)
08:29 < TheProducer> lol
08:29 < TheProducer> Yeah...you can probably see i'm trying to set up an open source toolkit for the project
08:29 < pxegeek> Compositing in blender?
08:30 < pxegeek> Or Cinelerra?
08:30 < TheProducer> Yeah, with some special things done in outside compositing programs
08:30 < TheProducer> I'm on Windows...and I couldn't stand Cinelerra during my stent in Linux
08:31 < TheProducer> I was hoping to use Jahshaka...but that project is dead
08:31 < ZanQdo> blender is kick ass for compositing
08:32  * pxegeek on windows too
08:32 < ZanQdo> and you can use composited scenes as input strips for the NLA sequences
08:32 < ZanQdo> so its... powerfull
08:32 < pxegeek> Not many of us around here.  :(
08:32 < TheProducer> There are rumblings that Positron NLE (a Blender based video editor) is coming back (it died too a while back)
08:32 < ZanQdo> mm
08:32 < ZanQdo> why do you need positron or what ever
08:32 < ZanQdo> regular blender will do
08:32 < TheProducer> Yeah, probably
08:33 < ZanQdo> http://www.3developer.com/portfolio/Expo_Regional.mov
08:33 < ZanQdo> look at that for example
08:33 < ZanQdo> thast %100 blender
08:34 < ZanQdo> non destructive
08:34 < ZanQdo> from 0 to final render on a single pipeline
08:34 < TheProducer> Wow, impressive!
08:34 < TheProducer> And it wasn't needlessly difficult?
08:34 < ZanQdo> you can go and change the geometry or animation as well as you can go anc change some final timming
08:34 < ZanQdo> its all done non destructibly
08:35 < TheProducer> Neat
08:35 < ZanQdo> TheProducer: well for the animation part you do need to know how to animate he he
08:35 < ZanQdo> but for compositing and NLE its pretty easy
08:35 < TheProducer> lol, i've been using Blender for a while, but i've never looked that deep into the sequencer
08:35 < TheProducer> I usually have been using outside apps like Vegas or Premiere
08:36 < ZanQdo> mm blender wasnt this capable 6 months ago
08:36 < ZanQdo> but now I dont see a reason most of the time for using another app
08:36 < TheProducer> Yeah...let me guess, it came about as a result of the ORANGE project?
08:36 < ZanQdo> its most of the time a better idea
08:36 < ZanQdo> orange and regular development
08:37 < TheProducer> I see
08:37 < ZanQdo> ffmpeg for example
08:37 < ZanQdo> before you only could load images or raw avis
08:37 < ZanQdo> that was a problem..
08:37 < ZanQdo> but not any more
08:37 < TheProducer> Its good to know that Blender is being used professionally more and more
08:37 < ZanQdo> also it has some cache limitor now
08:37 < ZanQdo> so you can load a 3 hours movie if you want
08:38 < ZanQdo> it wont blow your memory
08:38 < ZanQdo> that was a serious issue before
08:38 < TheProducer> Nice...and i'm assuming HD is supported as well?
08:38 < ZanQdo> yeah
08:38 < TheProducer> OK
08:40 < TheProducer> Its good that I set Blender as a cornerstone of the project
08:41 < ZanQdo> what project
08:41 < TheProducer> I'm working on a personal animated movie short
08:41 < ZanQdo> btw I'm doing things kinda diferent now
08:41 < ZanQdo> oh great :D
08:41 < ZanQdo> that animatons was done fully non destructive
08:41 < ZanQdo> and thats good of course
08:41 < TheProducer> yeah
08:41 < ZanQdo> but it can get complicated hast
08:41 < ZanQdo> fast
08:42 < ZanQdo> you have to thing of so many things and scenes and links and stuff
08:42 < ZanQdo> now I'm rendering to image sequences from time to time ha ha
08:42 < TheProducer> lol, yeah
08:42 < ZanQdo> keeps your mind sane
08:42 < TheProducer> I've done a few shorts in Blender before when I was in High school
08:43 < ZanQdo> nice :D
08:43 < ZanQdo> anything online?
08:43 < TheProducer> Not in its entirety, i'm still putting everything up
08:43 < ZanQdo> ok :)
08:43 < TheProducer> Its about 4 episodes..about 30-50 minutes each
08:43 < TheProducer> its pretty simple and basic stuff
08:43 < pxegeek> Regarding the importing - So far i've imported - bmp, gif, jpg, png, tga, ppm
08:43 < ZanQdo> now I need to find the time to learn synfig
08:44 < TheProducer> Ah ok...good that it can import PNG
08:44 < TheProducer> Since I started college, I haven't had time to work on the 5th episode...
08:45 < TheProducer> And now that things have lightened up, i'm using all the stuff I've learned and all the improvements i've made to my drawnig and modeling to produce a animated short
08:45 < TheProducer> I just need a solid 2D animator...open source preferably so that I don't need to pay for anything
08:46 < pxegeek> I just imported OpenEXR too!
08:46 < TheProducer> lol
08:47 < TheProducer> So pretty much it can take in all major raster formats
08:47 < pxegeek> Which is alos natvie to blender
08:47 < pxegeek> pretty much
08:47 < TheProducer> OK
08:48 < TheProducer> I might be able to get by with using image assets...
08:48 < TheProducer> Now that Synfig is relatively stable, i'll be able to do some test shots once i'm done with pre-production
08:50 < pxegeek> The only challenge for video is that there isn't a way that I've found to render directly to a video format from Synfig.  I have to render to still frames and use something else to assemble them to a video format
08:50 < pxegeek> (Windows version doesn't have libav support yet)
08:50 < TheProducer> Thats fine...best practice says to render to seq images anyway
08:50  * pxegeek nods
08:50 < TheProducer> Then pull it all together in a compositor or somewhere else
08:51 < TheProducer> Well, its late here so I need to run
08:51 < Zelig> Or you talking about rendering to a format with alpha?
08:51 < TheProducer> I'll stay in touch and show you updates on the project
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08:51 < Zelig> Cause, I rendered my Sy n Fig to dv when I needed to import into Cinelerra
08:52 < Zelig> Looking forward to it Producer
08:56 < pxegeek> No dv capability in WIndows :(
08:56 < Zelig> Ah..
08:58 < pxegeek> Well. midnight here.  Time for bed.
08:58 < pxegeek> See y'all tomorrow
08:58 < pxegeek> (or later today ;)
08:59 < Zelig> Night pxegeek
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09:42 < pabs3> http://cgi.ebay.com/Legal-Flash-Professional-Alternative-NEW-LOOK_W0QQitemZ200160534446QQihZ010QQcategoryZ185QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
09:43 < pabs3> anyone wanna buy synfig!?
09:44 < dooglus> heh
09:44 < dooglus> not sure about the 'legal' part
09:45 < dooglus> I'm sure I saw one of the windows on multiple workspaces recently
10:00 < dooglus> are you trying to trick me?
10:01 < dooglus> for only a few cents more I can buy the Master Collection, with Synfig, Inkscape and Many Many More!
10:01 < dooglus> http://cgi.ebay.com/CS3-Master-Collection-Alternative-LEGAL_W0QQitemZ200161317544QQihZ010QQcategoryZ185QQcmdZViewItem
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10:01 < pabs3> heh
10:02 < dooglus> notice he's using rore's flower tutorial, genete's eye, pxegeek's walking man :)
10:03 < pabs3> yep, and links to youtube for a bunch of videos
10:03  * pabs3 just saw the sinfg sf.net project
10:04 < pabs3> first alpha release in 2002
10:04 < dooglus> I can do you a mega-bundle of sinfg 0.0.0, 0.0.1 AND 0.0.2 for a low, low price
10:04 < dooglus> save $$$
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10:29 < genete> hI!
10:31 < pabs3> hi genete :)
10:31 < genete> Hi pabs3 !
10:31 < genete> I've seen the ebay offer...
10:31 < genete> Ouch my eye is there!
10:32 < genete> Do you think someone would buy the package?
10:33 < pabs3> I doubt it
10:33 < genete> Hey!
10:34 < genete> I have opened pirates with the last release and added a time line with no problems!
10:34 < genete> I'm trying to animate some object on it!
10:45 < pabs3> cool
10:45 < dooglus> someone did already
10:45 < dooglus> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=cashgangnet&&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&sspagename=VIP:feedback:2:us&iid=200160534446
10:54 < pabs3> :/
10:56 < dooglus> I think he's probably within his rights to sell synfig if he can
10:57 < dooglus> he'll need to include a copy of the GPL and make the source available on request, but he's not obliged to mention that it's available for free is he?
10:59 < pabs3> I guess not
11:00 < pabs3> hmm, the about dialog doesn't mention the GPL
11:00 < pabs3> I recon we should fix that for the next release
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11:15 < genete> Hi Ceox !
11:17 < genete> Ceox: have you readed the http://wiki.synfig.com/Keyframe wiki page?
11:18 < Ceox> yes
11:18 < Ceox> and hi  to you too
11:18 < Ceox> so keyframes like control many parameters of many objects at once?
11:23 < Ceox> okey, i understand what keyframes are now, but why do i need them?
11:24 < Ceox> i got waypoints
11:24 < genete> he he
11:24 < genete> have you readed that you can MOVE a keyframe to other time?
11:24 < genete> it implies ALL the waypoints at the same time!
11:26 < Ceox> oh
11:26 < Ceox> let me try something
11:26 < Ceox> be right back
11:26 < genete> ok
11:27 < Ceox> i cant make a ball move with keyframes
11:28 < Ceox> i need waypoints for it
11:31 < Ceox> lets say that i have made an animation of the lenght of 5 seconds. i draw a ball and set it up a waypoint at frame 1 and another waypoints at frame 20, where the ball has moved a bit to the left. now i create more balls and make them move between 1-20 frame. I have now many waypoints at frame 20. if i enter a keyframe to frame 20, will it change all those waypoints in somw way?
11:32 < genete> Mmm
11:32 < genete> Not change
11:32 < genete> When you insert a keyframe nothing change
11:33 < Ceox> whats the idea then!?
11:33 < genete> you just insert a mark in the time line
11:33 < genete> Imagine that you
11:33 < genete> realized that 20s is too late or too soon for the balls animation
11:34 < genete> are you going to move all the waypoints one by one?
11:34 < genete> just move the keyframe time!
11:34 < genete> and all the layers in the canvas will move too!
11:34 < Ceox> so the keyframe kind of locks all the waypoints?
11:34 < genete> some sort of that
11:35 < Ceox> okey, thanks alot!
11:35 < genete> please read the http://wiki.synfig.com/Keyframe and make all the comments you want at Discuss page. You'll be welcome!!!
11:37 < Ceox> already done that, and i got it now. you should put that example on the page, it's a good one
11:44 < genete> There are examples at the end...
11:44 < genete> but they're not so ilustrative
11:45 < genete> please you can add more examples if you want. It would make you understand better...
11:51 < genete> Whoohoo!! I've animates pirates file!!!!
11:53 < genete> the file: http://darthfurby.com/genete/synfig/pirates2.sifz
11:53 < genete> the animation sample http://darthfurby.com/genete/synfig/pirates2.avi
11:55 < genete> dooglus: I've found that PNG export fails to render the pirates2.sifz file.
11:55 < genete> glibmm-ERROR **: 
11:55 < genete> unhandled exception (type unknown) in signal handler
11:55 < genete> aborting...
11:55 < genete> Cancelado (core dumped)
11:59 < genete> jpeg export also crash and same message.
12:00 < genete> tried with single treaded and also crash.
12:01 < genete> bmp same result
12:04 < genete> File>Preview works ok :D
12:06 < genete> the only that seems to work is ffmpeg
12:13 < genete> openEXR renrers OK (what program do I need to watch EXR files?
12:15 < genete> Hey! png, jpeg, bmp failed due to the path I used to save the files!!!!
12:16 < genete> The path was: /home/carlos/synfig_source/synfig-0.61.07/examples/pirates2
12:16 < genete> It seems that the problem is with the dots in the path. 
12:17 < genete> I've just rendered pirates2 to other folder and in PNG format and it was fine!
12:20 < genete> dooglus: I'm bouncing on my chair!!!
12:20 < genete> modifying pirates file was clean and stable!!!
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13:08 < genete> dooglus: I've noticed that if you add time to an existing file that have inline canvases then the time is only added to the main canvas. The rest still having the original time line (none for pirates for example). anyway I've set a time for a subcanvas and it worked.
13:12 < genete> Rendered with PNG and composed wit Avidemux http://darthfurby.com/genete/synfig/pirates3.avi
13:13 < genete> the sifz file http://darthfurby.com/genete/synfig/pirates3.sifz
13:14 < genete> It was possible to export the HAT canvas. Also I added a Time loop layer inside it and make that loop animation.
13:14 < genete> I'm happy!
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18:21 < Ceox> hope no-one has done this tutorial before
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20:12 < pxegeek> genete - as far as I know, pirates was always animatable under linux.  It was just a problem for my under linux due to the thread issues(s) dooglus is chasing down.
20:12 < pxegeek> (Or at least, I hope that is the reason it was unstable)
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20:17 < pxegeek> And the only other program I've found that reads OpenEXR apart from a test app is Blender.  (and Synfig of course)
20:19 < MangoFusion> and cinepaint
20:20 < pxegeek> Hmmm... can gimp?
20:21 < pxegeek> apparently not... unless I need to upgrade
20:21 < MangoFusion> can't see any openexr option in mine
20:21 < MangoFusion> what is the file extension anyway/
20:21 < MangoFusion> ?
20:22 < pxegeek> good question!  
20:23 < pxegeek> Wiki pedia takes all the fun out of everything
20:23 < pxegeek> OpenEXR is directly supported by Artizen HDR, Combustion, Blender, CinePaint, Cinelerra, Houdini, Lightwave, modo, After Effects 7 Professional, Mental Ray, PRMan, Digital Fusion, Nuke, Toxik, Shake, Photoshop CS2, CINEMA 4D and Pixel Image Editor. It is also supported by the Cg programming language and Mac OS X as of version 10.4.
20:23 < MangoFusion> haha yes
20:23 < pxegeek> I'll have to add Synfig!
20:27  * pxegeek downloads the openexr samples (61 MB ugh!)
20:37 < pxegeek> Unsurprisingly the extension is - ECR
20:37 < pxegeek> Unsurprisingly the extension is - EXR <- this one
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22:22 < ulrik> hey!
22:24 < ulrik> dooglus: i saw you fixed the image leak :D 
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22:35 < genete> hi!
22:37 < genete> pxegeek: what I wanted to demonstrate is how much stable and easy to use is being synfig with the lasts commits dooglus have released...
22:37 < pxegeek> But did you have problems adding a timeline to pirates before?  
22:38 < genete> yes it crashed a few weeks ago
22:38 < genete> maybe the change to fast gaussian blur on the sopts of the heads
22:38 < genete> but I can see now that it is completely usable and easy to edit. 
22:39 < pxegeek> ha - I was under the impression rendering was more stable under Linux
22:39 < pxegeek> before
22:39 < pxegeek> But I'm very happy that it's more stable for all of us!
22:39 < genete> And it was but pirates resisted to much until last release
22:40 < genete> during this morning I have had the sensation of a robust program!!!
22:40 < genete> Although my computer is still being a little slow it can be usable
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22:53 < pxegeek> :)
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23:02 < ulrik> i found this interesting animation app, soon in beta testing: http://udpaint.com/
23:03 < genete> hi ulrik!
23:03 < ulrik> hi genete!
23:03 < ulrik> what's new?
23:03 < genete> I'm reading the "about me" page on musikboden.se ...
23:03 < genete> he he
23:04 < genete> I'm spying you!
23:04 < ulrik> ohhh, a lot of misspelling there, according to dooglus, he's english
23:05 < genete> don't worry... I'm spanish and understand quite well your norweian-english language
23:05 < genete> norweian is ok?
23:05 < genete> Mmm
23:05 < ulrik> swedish...hmmm
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23:05 < genete> ouch! sorry
23:05 < ulrik> ;) 
23:06 < dooglus> genete: there's more stability commits to come
23:06 < genete> anyway swedish is easy to write..
23:06 < dooglus> genete: I found a few more problems that I'm working on
23:06 < genete> dooglus: woohooo!!! 
23:06 < dooglus> genete: but first your bad dir.bug/file.png render fixes
23:07 < genete> now can recongnize dots now?
23:07 < genete> now now...
23:08 < genete> ulrik: I've seen the plant layer demo in your web page... I didn't see it before.. cool!
23:08 < ulrik> :) 
23:09 < genete> dooglus: did you read my comment about the time set on a main canvas and a sub canvas?
23:09 < ulrik> did i say i liked your fix with the keyframes at the wiki, very nice!
23:10  * pxegeek wonders - Endish or Swenglish?
23:10 < genete> Yes I readed your comment in the log... thanks! But I believe there are more things to add keyframes are a surprise box..
23:10 < genete> pxegeek: Swenglish of course! (Spanglish too)
23:11 < dooglus> genete: yes.  different canvases can have different start and end times
23:11 < dooglus> genete: would you want that feature removed?
23:11 < genete> Mmmm let me think on what's better...
23:12 < genete> Main timeline should be always longer (cover) the child timelines?
23:12 < genete> what happen if a child time line is shifted from main timeline?
23:13 < genete> What happen if a child layer (under a subcanvas) is linked to another child layer under other canvas (like if they were cousins)?
23:14 < genete> and their time lines doesn't match?
23:14 < genete> I have no idea on what happen on those cases ...
23:15 < genete> I think the current behavior is not a bug... is only a behavior to understand.
23:15  * genete was thinking on loud voice.
23:17 < dooglus> ok
23:17 < dooglus> I don't know if the current way is best
23:18 < dooglus> you know you can have a different .sif as a sub canvas?  maybe that .sif is longer, and you only want to use a few frames from it...
23:18 < dooglus> or maybe it's shorter, and you want to keep it shorter
23:19 < genete> yes it isn't a trivial issue
23:19 < genete> A question:
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23:19 < genete> keyframes belong to canvases
23:19 < genete> (keyframes created in a subcanvas are not seen in main canvas)
23:20 < genete> but if I create a keyframe in the main canvas...
23:20 < genete> is is created also in the subcanvases?
23:20 < genete> is it*
23:20 < genete> I haven't tested it yet.
23:21 < dooglus> I don't think it is
23:21 < genete> I made some strange things when animated pirates this morning... finally I exported the hat and animated the feather in the subcanvas
23:22 < dooglus> each canvas has its own keyframes, and they are quite separate
23:22 < dooglus> I just committed a change to ETL - you might want to recompile now, 'cos it will take a while
23:22 < genete> ok
23:22 < dooglus> no functional change yet, but later I'll start using that change to fix the .png bug
23:23 < genete> dooglus: have you seen how much happy I was this morning when I could animate pirates?
23:23 < genete> :D
23:23 < genete> synfig looks now to me VERY stable
23:24 < genete> and that's a good new for all
23:25 < genete> do I need to rebuild synfig and studio?
23:29  * genete is recompiling all  
23:32 < CIA-28> synfig: dooglus * r928 /ETL/trunk/ETL/_stringf.h: Wrote filename_extension() and filename_sans_extension(), since they are reimplemented (often incorrectly) in lots of places.
23:48 < dooglus> genete: yes, all
23:49 < genete> _stringf.h seems to be in all cpp files...
23:59 < dooglus> genete: yes, that's why I gave you the heads up :)
--- Log closed Mon Oct 15 00:00:21 2007